We need a F800RT
I've been riding BMW RTs for over 25 years. The R1200RT is a wonderful bike, likely the best touring bike in the world, but it has gotten to big for me. I rode a F800ST a couple of weeks ago for the first time. It's lightness reminded me of my first R100RT. The power is just fine. The handleing is outstanding. However F800 has been targeted more toward the sport ergonomics. For a F800RT the following are my hopes:
- raise the handle bars
- flaten the sear to be more parrallet to the ground, while keeping the sear hieght the same, Think of a modern version or a R100RT seat.
- keep the fuel tank under the seat. a great idea to keep C of G low. maybe make it 1 G bigger
- repostion the foot pegs, lower, a bit more forward so the rider is not quite so folded up.
- The lowered ST version is preferable to me.
- Improve the fairing. Higher and wider adjustable windshield. Manual adjustment is fine to keep costs/weight lower.
- wider fairing around the bar and mid area, designed to address rain as well as wind. (R1100 fairing did this really well). Use you wind tunnel to get it right and as small as possible,
- tweek the lower fairing to help keep feet and legs drier while not trapping heat ( maybe an adjustable vent).
- keep the weight low. The current ST weight in right on target.
- make sure there is assory power for heated clothing and another to power electonics.
- make the hard bag bigger and lower and total bike width narrower. The bage should hold a full face helmet. lower bags keep the CG lower than current ST. This will mean lowering the exhaust pipe...again think early RTs for accomplishing this.
All these mods can be done on the existing F800 design (except maybe fuel tank size) so the tooling cost and mfg line mods would be minimal.
Let me know when you do this so I can give my dealer a deposit!
I believe this bike is made. It's labled the 1200RT. Why not insist that the bike of your dreams also weigh 100 pounds less? Then all us old farts would not have a problem picking it up when we drop it.
Actually a nicer fairing isn't impossible. MAybe a Rabid Transit style would do well. All Carcon Fiber and feather weight. Making the panniers more slender and holding a full face too. NOT! Our stock expando bags do hold a helmet but I rarely ride with the helmet in the bag so it's tucked up closed which is as narrow as the bars. No Problem. More fuel would be nice, The new GS has an after market 5+gallon add on. Just the ticket for those long rides across Texas.
Maybe a low version of that would be a better platform from which to start. Upright riding position, long suspension for comfort. Huge gas capacity and lots of crash bars from which to mount all the plastic you'd need for wind protection. Several opportunities for after market saddle bags so you could choose your desired width.
A couple tweaks with pipes will put the mufler of your choice where ever you want it.
The R1200RT is just to big, to heavy, center of G to high. I've riden them several times now. I road an R1100RTL almost 90k miles and was planning to trade for a R1200. It just turned me off. ( It does handle nicely at speed and has great power)
The GS are just a oxymoron for me. A 500, 600 or maybe 700lb fully outfitted dirt bike just does not make sense. You sit tall, all out in the wind buffeting..tiring on long days. For road, evan dirt road riding there is no need for the excessively high clearance and CG. Unless your are 25 year old, 6ft 5 and in great shape you just don't have the strength or size to mussel it around for real dirt riding. the KLR is by far the best for "serious adventure touring" for most of us average people. The 650GS is likely the best BMW for this.
No I want BMW to return to it's roots and have a great 500lb touring bike.
I agree with most of what you have said regarding the need for a smaller RT. I recently sold my 2002 1150RT (bought new) because it was just too big and heavy for me at this point in my riding career (I have over 40 years of experience). I loved the bike, but found that I seldom rode it as my daily form of transportation. It was just too much to maneuver it out of a full garage to take it for a quick trip to the store or an appointment with my doctor. I had hesitated when I bought it because of these concerns, but gave in to the beauty and grace of the 1150RT. It was every bit the bike that I expected, but as I had anticipated, I seldom rode it (5,000 miles in 7 years). I originally had gone out looking for something that was between 700 to 1000cc, and found that there was very little that met my needs or style of riding. I wanted something that was upright, protected my body, and was comfortable for long or short rides. And I wanted quality with a solid reputation. I entertained the usual suspects, even the US of A standard for middle aged guys, but found the comfort level extremely lacking. Everything else seemed to extreme in style for me or looked very uncomfortable.
So, what did I replace it with? The nearest I could find an stay upright was the F650gs. I now own both (don't ask) an 02 single and the 09 twin, and I love them both. I have to sell the single because of cost and space considerations, but have really enjoyed both of them this summer. I routinely jump on one or the other to run a quick errand and find myself enjoying biking more than I have in many years. I am a fairly large man at 6'2", 250lbs, and find that both bikes handle me without complaint. I have had to make a few adjustments (seat, pegs, windscreen, etc.) to meet my needs, but have found that process to be a fun part of being a bike owner and rider. I believe that the internet and these forums have made it much more fun to connect with other riders, and I believe that it helps stimulate interest in riding and modifying your bike to "make it your own".
So, back to the down sized RT. I love the concept. Keep pushing it. As I get older I want to simplify, make my life a little more comfortable, a little easier to deal with. A smaller RT would be the perfect fit. My order is on the list with yours!
[COLOR=Red]2013 F800GS Cordoba blue/black, ABS, ASC, ESA, heated grips, centrestand, BMW vario cases, Scottoiler, Touratech hand protectors, Powerbronze flip-up screen Number of ABS extended releases: None
Seriously though, I've had touring type bikes for a number of years (not as many as bobz though!). I love the more upright riding position and at my age you don't really want to be scrunched up for long distances. After riding the S I'd sort of hoped that the ST would be more that style of bike, but I was disappointed - still too sporty for me. Then I test rode the 800GS on a track day - absolutely fantastic! I knew I had to get one.
I know I'll be accused of being wimpy not taking a GS off-road (haven't got round to that - YET!), but I see it as an all-purpose bike, perfectly suited to commuting, touring and track days too, even if you don't hit the dirt. The 800 has more power than the 650 and has a bit more ground clearance due to the higher riding position.
On the riding position, I thought I'd never get used to the seat height, but actually it's fine.
I'm not saying BMW shouldn't do as you say - seems pretty logical. But in the meantime, there is a great solution which ticks most of the boxes.
[COLOR=Red]2013 F800GS Cordoba blue/black, ABS, ASC, ESA, heated grips, centrestand, BMW vario cases, Scottoiler, Touratech hand protectors, Powerbronze flip-up screen Number of ABS extended releases: None
I agree the current F650GS is closest to be basic element of new under 450lb RT. I got the stock seat which is almost flat, the lowered suspension, and added the best windscreen I could find (there are many available. I got the Aeroflow with airguard and the duct deflectors and the leg guard. I added the Jesse bags too. This set up give nearly repliates the same weather and wind coverage as and RT. The F650GS seating position is excellant.
I've put over 6500 miles on my F650GS and love it. It is so light and agile. Easy to get on and manouver at low speeds, in parking lots.
But if BMW put an integrated package together...it would be much better done.
I agree that the RT is getting away from being totally accessible in terms of it's overall bulk, but I think that the F800ST makes a pretty good starting point for a small RT. It already has a plethora of alternative screens (including the fully adjustable Madstad), bar risers from modest to monster, seats and aftermarket luggage. It's also a proper road bike with a fairing that does a decent job at keeping the elements at bay.
I'm sure BMW could do the job better, but I feel that the ST is a decent step in the right direction. I take on board what others have said about the 800GS and 650GS Twin based on their own experiences, but I'm not sure I'd go down either of those roads if I was wanting to make an F800RT.
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
Nice idea.
Take an ST and add:
Bigger, more protective fairing
Higher capacity alternator plus more electrical outlets
Slightly higher bars
Optional radio with passenger controls as per the RT
Optional power windshield
Optional heated seats
Locking glove box in front fairing
Optional cruise control
Optional integrated intercom
Move all dash controls to handlebars (get rid of those two damn buttons on the speedo)
Then I'd be happy.
I freaking loved RT power windshield when I test rode one the other week, should be a mandatory toy on all touring bikes!
And the radio was awesome to blast away while tearing up corners.
But yes it was a little too big... But tempting... Wonder if they make a lowering kit
Cheers
Tim
F800ST (2008/01) modified like mad || F650GS with TKC80's and full crashbars || GS-911 available in the Barrie, Ontario area.
Thorvald, AFAIK they do make a lowered version of the RT - but you still have to deal with all that weight. I think most of us who fantasize about the 'dream' RT version have already 'one-upped' BMW with our various farkles and mods...............
The F800ST does not, in my opinion, serve adiquately as an F800RT.
I test road the F800ST and it is a great "sport" bike that can be used for touring. When I went to the dealer I fully intended to buy one ( sold my old R1100RT and after riding the new R1200RT, lowered version it was just to big). Any how after and hour ride I knew the ST was not what I wanted. Taking nothing away from the way it hides or handles, it is just not an 800 mile a day bike. My emphasis is long distance touring like the R100RT and sucessors have done very well.
The ST has a folded up riding position, relatively narrow bars, lot of weight on the arm ( not an upright riding position0. I love the engine and the rear swing arm. The F650GS give a much better riding position, unfolds the body, larger diameter front wheel to better handle poor and dirt roads, and wider bars. What it needs is an excelent fairing, some well design bags, etc etc.. the F800ST rear suspension....
Thanks Gus, that prompted me to read the new 2010 brochure on the R1200RT. Very nice! Multiple seat heights and an awesome new multimedia joystick interface for iPod etc. Has 24 station memory for the radio etc.
Only negative is the extra low seat can't be heated... but that's fine, I doubt I'd ever even use that feature.
Now I need one
F800ST (2008/01) modified like mad || F650GS with TKC80's and full crashbars || GS-911 available in the Barrie, Ontario area.
The F800ST does not, in my opinion, serve adiquately as an F800RT.
Ah, um...
Thanks for adding your experiences and insight, but I wasn't putting the ST forward as the finished article. To my mind, however, it is at least a good starting point from which an owner can farkle to his/her heart's content and take it to a spec that might be what BMW themselves could consider for a putative "baby RT". While I agree that this is equally true of many other bikes, my opinion is simply that, of the existing F800 range, the ST is the best bike to start from.
As it happens, I agree almost entirely with your findings but still bought the ST anyway on the basis that it meets my needs better. Most of my trips are of a more modest mileage and don't require me to tote around large amounts of luggage, and I prefer to get off the bigger roads and onto the back roads wherever possible. Therefore the light weight, modest size and sporting pretensions are pretty much ideal for me.
But I'm not here to argue. I accept what you say and understand that differences of opinion are what make forums like this such a pleasure to be part of. We're just shooting the breeze.
SL
Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.
I wanted a RT type bike! For my experience level, size, money to spend, etc. The R12RT's were too big, too expensive, too high center of gravity, no belt drive, etc. So, F8ST modified to fit. With the mod's it was still thousands cheaper than the R12RT's, its still a BMW, it fit's me physically and mentally.
I would have preferred that BMW made the F800RT and am sure I would have added some minor mod's to suit me personally.
Mine is not as slick as Crick's mock-up but it gets the job done!
All these comments are great. The only one I really object to is the premise that the F800RT would be a baby RT. Wrong! It is closer to the orignial R100RT than the current "BLIMP" RT. The spec of the current F800ST or F650GS are much closer to the original RT than the R1200RT. I bought a 82 R100RT new. Less than 500lbs wet, seat height allow me to flat foot it (maybe 29 or 30 inches), 19 inch front wheel so it was very good on poor and dirt roads.
Really apreciate tje phot shop and the F800ST farkled out. He is my F650GS farkled toward an RT
Nice ride bobz. I am with you 100%, it doesn't even have to be the Rotax motor, just light, 29"ish seat height and handling close to the F800 (or 650 twin).
Silence is Golden but Duct Tape is Silver.
2010 F800R - 2011 GSX1250FA
Nice ride bobz. I am with you 100%, it doesn't even have to be the Rotax motor, just light, 29"ish seat height and handling close to the F800 (or 650 twin).
adding complete full dress fairings and luggage, that doesn't have to add as much weight as one would think; the R1200RT is a tank because the R1200 frame isn't exactly all that light to begin with. Start with a smaller frame and ditch the features that try to turn a motorcycle into a 5-series BMW car, and I think an F800RT would be a very nice touring bike.
Surely BMW doesn't think that the F800ST is enough to compete with the Multistrada 1200?? If Ducati got one thing right on that bike, it's weight.
2015 Ducati 1299S Panigale - red
2014 Ducati Multistrada Granturismo - matte grey
2011 Ducati 796 Monster ABS - red
2007 BMW F800S - sunset yellow...Bumblebee! (sold)
A F800RT is so obvious I'm surprised BMW have not done it.
But lets not forget they didn't do a K75RT either. Although some dealers in the UK "created" one by using the K100 parts.
My guess is they know it would kill of the R1200RT battle tank.
TTFN
.
Not sure I agree with that. Just like the R1200GS massively outsells the F800GS, I suspect an F800RT wouldn't make much of a dent in 1200RT sales. Maybe that's the point. The K75RT (I hadn't realised it was non-standard) was so gutless for all that weight. Whilst the F800 produces significantly more power, some touring types might consider it a bit underpowered for long-distance touring. They'll only invest in developing a new model if it brings significant sales.
[COLOR=Red]2013 F800GS Cordoba blue/black, ABS, ASC, ESA, heated grips, centrestand, BMW vario cases, Scottoiler, Touratech hand protectors, Powerbronze flip-up screen Number of ABS extended releases: None
Good point about the GS's. I just loved my R80RT it was light (for a tourer) and with just me on it and a bit a luggage was great. In fact if they still made it I would buy one over an F800. The older R's where great bikes until they got water cooling and gained a lot a flab (to meet noise regulations I believe).
The older R's where great bikes until they got water cooling and gained a lot a flab (to meet noise regulations I believe).
That was my reason too
[COLOR=Red]2013 F800GS Cordoba blue/black, ABS, ASC, ESA, heated grips, centrestand, BMW vario cases, Scottoiler, Touratech hand protectors, Powerbronze flip-up screen Number of ABS extended releases: None
Just some observations on the differences of the F800ST and the F650GS....ie the reasons why I bought a F650GS over theh ST. This is just my preferances. I thought I was going to buy an ST till I took one for a 60 mile ride. For me the ergonomics is too much of a sport bike. My body was folded up too much, ie the demension from seat to foot pegs, low ness/narrowness of the handel bars, etc cramped my legs and put too much weight on my wrists for long hours in the saddle. The same demensions of the f650 are much more spread out, more upright seating, more compfortable to me.I also like the front fork/steering head geometry and the 19inch wheel for dirt/rough roads.I know this hurts the handling a bit at speed.For long trips I like a flat or nearly flat seat. Agressively sloped seats tend to give me wedgies on long days...not fun. Flat seats alow you to move around , reposition your self.I do like the STs rear swing arm and belt drive. I love the ST's additional hpgr. I would like the F800RT to have low pipes so the bags can be mounted lower (better center of gravity...still with great cornering/lean clearance.
Bobz - I tend to agree with you - my dealer has a lowered blue F658 decked out exactly the way I'd set it up - and it fits overall better than my ST - SIGH - I just will not have another bike with a chain. Yeah I know chains have really evolved over the years since I had my last chain driven one but my ST is now pretty close to how I would spec it out if they made an RT version. So would I buy and F800RT - maybe - if it was a significant enough improvement to make the swap worthwhile.
Maybe better than the shaft drive. It is certainly lighter,and could be cheaper, and from some of the posts, there still seems to be problems with the BMW shaft drive failures. Why BMW designers allow this...after all these years is a puzzle.
I understand from my Harley friends, who also love them, belts should be changed at about 25k miles and they are not cheap.
I would still chose the f650GS over the ST because of it's better ergonomics for me.
In defense of new chains and lubs, I have over 10k miles and there is very little signs of wear on the sprockets, especially the front. I have not adjusted chain tension and it is still in spec ( though I believe my dealer did when he did a recall fix on evap breather). The new chain cleaner spray is amazing...spray on wipe off. and the lub sticks
Here are some pictures of my F650GS that I have tried to upgrade for long distance touring. some what towards the RT config.
The biggest help is the wind and weather protection of the Aeroflow set up. It keeps light rain off while moving, greatly reduces fatique on long days and give me the warmth that adds about a month of riding on both ends of the riding season here in VT.
The other significant mods are the Sargent Flat seat and Jesse bags.
Found that XM radio works well on bikes and can be installed for less than $100 plus the subscription of course
Belt drive is not appropriate for semi-off road use a GS is intended for.
Yes but they could keep the current F650GS as is and call the belt drive version an F650CS.
There's a guy in Ontario that sort of turned his F800ST into an RT... or is it a GT?
He did a write up on BMWMOA but here's the summary:
F800 Depot mirror extenders, Z Technik VStream 19" windshield, R1150R handlebars and Spiegler extended front brake line, Eastern Beaver fuse / relay panel, hardwire mount for Garmin GPS, autotrimdesign.com graphics set, Givi V35 bags and E350 top box, moto-LED taillight, Throttlemeister, Silver Star headlight bulb and an Akrapovic TI full exhaust system.
They do make an F800RT. It is the F800ST. If it's not right, then get the R1200RT. There cannot be twelve zillion bike models made in this world.
Both the ST and the RT are fairly rare. They are not made by the acre full like Harleys.
dc
A lot of people rave about the 1200 ST. They are rare. And, since they don't make them any longer, they are probably hard to get.
If you had to replace that bike, what would you replace it with?
dc
The R1200ST is very nice sport tourer (ie ST). BMW put the emphasis on sport...this is more often includes tighter engineer gearing, suspension geometry for more agile (at the expense of some stability)...more importantly, to me, is the sport ergonomics.. The handle bars are low and narrow (more weigh on wrists and more effort to turn) and the foot pegs are relatively High (best ground clearance for very aggressive..sporty cornering) that makes for tight knee and ankle bending.
Young people can enjoy/endure this sporty riding position for long times with out pain...us older people don't do well for long rides when folded up like this.
The F800ST has nearly the same riding position as the other BMW ST's...not good for me...but nearly a hundred pound lighter alternative to the R1200ST the K1200ST is heavier yet(more power too)
The K...ST, R1200ST and R1200RT are all great bikes....but too big and heavy form me.
I want a bike for long distance touring ..500+ miles days... (not sport ergos) less than 500lbs wet...like the old R100RT.
This is why my preference is making the F800 into a touring bike with upright ergos and full coverage fairing.
The F650GS has the egos but no fairing. The F800ST has the wrong egos and an "ok" coverage fairing.
N4 - I tend to agree with crash48 regarding the F650 (converted to a belt) - the ergonimics (fitment?) of that bike actually are a much better initial fit for me than my '07ST. If it had been available with a belt vice a chain (model wasn't out yet) that would probably have saved a lot of tweaking that was necessary to the ST to get it 'right'. (or at least close enough)
decoats is (sorta) correct - of course if we took that line of reasoning to the proper conclusion there would be only one make/model of motorcycle (Model T - you can have it in any color as long as it is black) and all else would be add ons. Would be great for the aftermarket folks but maybe not so much for the dealers - not enough mass appeal. Although the did sell a bunc of them Model Ts
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Originally Posted by Eddy G
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