"Recommended" oil apparently not up to snuff?

**kohog** · 08-05-11

I have a 2009 F800GS with 38k+ miles. On recommendations from my dealer I changed to semi-synthetic on the second oil change and to full synthetic on the third oil change. I change oil about every 3500 miles. The viscosity recommendation in the BMW manual is SAE 10W-40 TO 15W-40. However, my experience was that these viscosities, at least in the full synthetic variety, were too thin - when changing gears it felt like there was no lubrication between the cogs or that the lubricant was more like water than oil.

The last time I changed the oil I decided to experiment and put a heavier weight oil in so purchased Amsoil's 20W-50 and the difference has been tremendous. My gear changes are smooth as butter and it now feels as if I have oil rather than water in my gearbox. I love it.

However, am I damaging the oil pump by putting in a heavier weight oil? I was wondering if any other F800 owners are experiencing anything similar? Feedback would be great.

**Roadpizza** · 08-06-11

I ran 20-50 Amsoil in all my Duc's. I'll be glad to hear anything on this myself...

**LytteltonKen** · 08-06-11

I can't imagine you damaging the oil pump with heavier weight oil. The only downside I can think of is that the pump might not be able to suck quite as much oil through, with a consequent reduction in pressure to the bigends and top end. Even then, I don't think it would be a genuine problem because even a little bit of pressure should be enough to keep the metals separated.

About the only thing I can suggest is to let the bike warm up a bit longer before you start giving it The Message.

**Mokkybear** · 08-06-11

Know what you mean re the gear changes - my clutch and gearbox are always a little smoother on a cold engine (ie thicker oil).

I suspect the only thing you might find is a marginal drop in economy due to the engine/gearbox pumping/stirring thicker oil. It's one of the reasons oils are of such low viscosity these days - to achieve better economy. Penrite, for example, recommends their 10W50 for the F800 series engines, which is effectively the same as what you are running once warmed up. You might also notice slower cranking with the starter from cold - I would notice this with my bevel SS Ducati (kick start) when running a heavier grade oil.

**ohg59** · 08-06-11

From what I understand, it is the top-end oil galleries that necessitate the lower viscosity oil. Running higher than 15w full synthetic has caused top-end damage in f800 engines.

**Mokkybear** · 08-06-11

Originally Posted by ohg59

From what I understand, it is the top-end oil galleries that necessitate the lower viscosity oil. Running higher than 15w full synthetic has caused top-end damage in f800 engines.

15W indicates the viscosity when the oil is cold. Not sure that 20W would make that much difference (but I might be wrong) unless you do heaps of cold starts compared to normal operating temperature.

**kohog** · 08-06-11

Originally Posted by ohg59

From what I understand, it is the top-end oil galleries that necessitate the lower viscosity oil. Running higher than 15w full synthetic has caused top-end damage in f800 engines.

This is the kind of information I'm looking for. Obviously during cold winter months (I ride every day that ice or snow are not lying on the roads) I would use a thinner viscosity. The thinness of the recommended oils irks me in summer but not enough that I'd be drawn into damaging valves or anything. The difference the heavier weight oil affords in the feel of the gear changes, however, is dramatic - much creamier.

What sort of damage has been appearing on top ends and is this directly attributable to using heavier weight oils? As an aside, this is why these user forums are so valuable because no BMW dealer will speak outside whatever the mfr recommends (but they're not ALWAYS right.) Appreciate all the opinions appearing here.

**kohog** · 08-06-11

Well, here's another question. The F800GS has an oil pan right? If oil is drawn from this reservoir to lube/cool internal parts, isn't it deposited first at the top (valvetrain, etc.) then trickles down through to the pan? Or are you saying the oil is drawn up through the engine and the top end is the last to be lubed?. Knowing how the lube is distributed could help us figure this thing out a little easier, no?

**Gonzo** · 08-06-11

20W-50 means the oil will act like a 20 wt at the low end of it's temp range, and a 50 at the top of it. It gets thicker with heat. I have run 20W-50 mobil1 in all my cars and in my two Honda 750's for years with no ill effects. Thicker oil will not damage your pump in any way, it will still move it. I recently switched to Valvoline 15W-40 full synthetic Motorcycle specific oil in the S1000RR. Sorry BMW, but at $8 a quart, compared to $16 for your stuff, it's a no-brainer, and the smoothness of my gearbox is intact. One thing that will never, EVER be used in my engines is Amsoil! Back in my younger days, 2 friends of mine and I all bought some. My 91 CRX, their 88 Toyota truck and 82 Skylark ALL started leaking from almost every seal within a week! we all went back to normal dinosaur squeezin's and synth in my case, and the leaks stopped. I don't care how much improvement they've made, how many happy customers they have, they will never see my money again.

**Gonzo** · 08-06-11

Originally Posted by kohog

Well, here's another question. The F800GS has an oil pan right? If oil is drawn from this reservoir to lube/cool internal parts, isn't it deposited first at the top (valvetrain, etc.) then trickles down through to the pan? Or are you saying the oil is drawn up through the engine and the top end is the last to be lubed?. Knowing how the lube is distributed could help us figure this thing out a little easier, no?

Actually, due to fluid dynamics, every part of the engine that is downstream of the pump is lubed at the same time. What the pump does beside distribute is pressurize, and it is this pressure that is present at the cam, crank, etc.,etc., at the same time that keeps the engine protected. Remember, your rotating and sliding engine parts actually ride on a film of oil, and not a bearing. It is the stress of starting with a diminished oil layer that causes wear and tear on the journals.

**dacrazyrn** · 08-06-11

Well if it's wrong, then the dealership that did my 12k service is in trouble. They put in 20W-50

**Mokkybear** · 08-07-11

Originally Posted by Gonzo

..... It gets thicker with heat ....

Actually a multi-grade doesn't get thicker (more viscous) with heat. It's just that at lower temperatures, it acts as a lower viscosity grade oil - that is, a 15W is 'thinner' than a 50 grade would be at that low temperature. At normal operating temperatures, the oil acts as a 50 grade (rather than 15 grade, which would be much thinner at that temperature).

**trevor** · 08-07-11

Originally Posted by kohog

Well, here's another question. The F800GS has an oil pan right?

Technically No, Wrong it does not. It's a dry sump:- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_sump

**N4HHE** · 08-07-11

Originally Posted by Mokkybear

Actually a multi-grade doesn't get thicker (more viscous) with heat. It's just that at lower temperatures, it acts as a lower viscosity grade oil - that is, a 15W is 'thinner' than a 50 grade would be at that low temperature. At normal operating temperatures, the oil acts as a 50 grade (rather than 15 grade, which would be much thinner at that temperature).

Put it another way, the "W" portion represents the coldest temperature at which a supposedly typical engine could pump the oil to its parts. Doesn't matter if its 15W50 or just 15W oil. Is not rated at any one temperature but based on the temperature the oil thickens to the pumping limit.

Non-W viscosity ratings are made at 100°C.

A 15W50 oil does not get thicker as it gets warmer. Its that the slope of thinning is flatter than that of a standard single-weight oil. A 15W50 really is a 15 weight oil with exceptional properties at operating temperatures. These properties traditionally come from editing by use of viscosity improvers but synthetic manufacturing techniques have found ways to make the base oil viscosity less sensitive to temperature. Viscosity improvers are delicate and don't last, but base oil does. Hence the reputation of synthetic motor oils for longer oil life.

Synthetic motor oil has taught everyone a lot about what makes a good motor oil. These days refined motor oil is very good, better than the good synthetics of yesteryear.

I do not believe "synthetic" is a badge of quality when applied to motor oil. I cringe at ignorance when one such as the O.P. states, "On recommendations from my dealer I changed to semi-synthetic on the second oil change and to full synthetic on the third oil change." The brand and model of oil used is more important than whether it is synthetic or not. There are no performance criteria required of an oil to be "synthetic", it doesn't have to be any different, better, or as good, as a refined oil, it only has to pass exactly the same performance tests as any other oil. If the manufacturer cares a superior motor oil can be made with synthetic manufacturing processes, but the manufacturer has to care more about making a superior oil than they care about selling product for top dollar.

**kohog** · 08-07-11

OK, maybe not a pan with screws and a gasket like the old bikes but there is a sump nevertheless and it's not dry since there is a drain plug at the bottom and the dipstick screws into this lower part of the motor. There is no oil tank separate from the engine either. So your "statement" is very confusing.. Care to elaborate?

**trevor** · 08-07-11

Yep that's where the oil tank is, under the engine. Cunning buggers these Germans

http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-moto...s/bmw-f-800-r/

2. Engine.

Oil circulation with semi-dry sump lubrication. The oil circulation also has a number of special technical features which go beyond what is standard in this category of motorcycle. In order to minimize splash losses, the F 800 engine series has a semi-dry sump lubrication system. Any oil escaping from the main bearings of the crank drive runs into the sealed off shaft of the compensation system.
An oil pump extracts the lubricant from here and distributes it to the oil jets in the gearbox. Oil escaping from the gearbox via gaps in the crankcase is collected together with the oil escaping from the cylinder head via the chain shaft in the remaining space of the crankshaft casing around the rod shaft. This space is thus used as an integrated oil tank. A second pump feeds all bearings from this reservoir.

**bobz** · 08-08-11

FWIW

Today's modern water cooled engines are much more temperature stable(narrower temp operating range) than older engines and much more stable than air cooled engines, which of have extremely high temp on hot days, in traffic in the heads especially around the exhaust valve/rocker/cam. Water and oil cooling allows the engine to be designed and manufacture to MUCH tighter tolerances. The net result is these engine are designed for less viscose oils. These oil flow faster and easier, produce less fluidic friction loses (better milage). Every new car I bought since 2004 has specified 5-30. Two said Mobile 1 5-30 right on the filler cap.

Putting heavier weigh oils can not help with these designs. I'm not sure they do damage but bearings and piston dimensions designed for 5w are NOT going to get the same/ enough lubrication with 20W.

The F800 engine is water and oil cooled. There is evan a separate oil to water heat exchanger. It is a very modern well cooled engine.

I have every reason to think the transmission design is well done as well and design for the thiner oils as well.

I do not know why you have shifting problems. I would check clutch adjustment for excessive drag when the clutch handle is pulled it.

The old air cooled engines needed the 20-50oils. They suffered huge temperature variation and the corresponding heat driven expansions and contractions. The more viscous / 20w oil help bridge these larger dimension changes. Remember the corresponding oil consumption...which we never hear of with today engines after break in. This is why old design Harley's still specify 20-50. This is not at all what we have in the F800 engine.

I would not put 20-50 in my F800

**kohog** · 08-08-11

Many thanks to all contributors to this post, I certainly feel much better educated on the subject now. Looks like a return to the OEM recommended viscosities. I wasn't having "problems" with gear changes, just that the recommended oil felt thin and gear changes felt like metal on metal. Until you have used the thicker oil you will not understand the difference, but the heavier viscosity makes the gear changes smoother, softer, "creamy." But I don't want to risk any damage to the motor.

**Dewi Sant** · 08-29-11

Originally Posted by N4HHE

Put it another way, the "W" portion represents the coldest temperature at which a supposedly typical engine could pump the oil to its parts. Doesn't matter if its 15W50 or just 15W oil. Is not rated at any one temperature but based on the temperature the oil thickens to the pumping limit.

Non-W viscosity ratings are made at 100°C.

A 15W50 oil does not get thicker as it gets warmer. Its that the slope of thinning is flatter than that of a standard single-weight oil. A 15W50 really is a 15 weight oil with exceptional properties at operating temperatures. These properties traditionally come from editing by use of viscosity improvers but synthetic manufacturing techniques have found ways to make the base oil viscosity less sensitive to temperature. Viscosity improvers are delicate and don't last, but base oil does. Hence the reputation of synthetic motor oils for longer oil life.

Synthetic motor oil has taught everyone a lot about what makes a good motor oil. These days refined motor oil is very good, better than the good synthetics of yesteryear.

I do not believe "synthetic" is a badge of quality when applied to motor oil. I cringe at ignorance when one such as the O.P. states, "On recommendations from my dealer I changed to semi-synthetic on the second oil change and to full synthetic on the third oil change." The brand and model of oil used is more important than whether it is synthetic or not. There are no performance criteria required of an oil to be "synthetic", it doesn't have to be any different, better, or as good, as a refined oil, it only has to pass exactly the same performance tests as any other oil. If the manufacturer cares a superior motor oil can be made with synthetic manufacturing processes, but the manufacturer has to care more about making a superior oil than they care about selling product for top dollar.

Which of course is spot on. There's so much garbage written about the merits etc of these synthetic "wonder" oils that most at best serve only to confuse and bewilder the would be buyers. The reality of it all is that pretty much all synth oils are mineral based anyway to some degree and most are subject to intensive marketing hype. There are actually very few genuine 100% synth oils. The subject is huge and far too complex to go into on a forum, but a decent website that puts things into perspective can be found by following these links.

Part one: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0308_oil/index.html

Part two: http://www.sportrider.com/tech/146_0310_oil/index.html

Dewi

**The Grey Ghost** · 03-30-12

I have it on good authority that the boxer engines should be run for at least 30,000 clicks (18,500 miles) on Castrol 20W-50 organic oil before changing to synthetic. Obviously ambient temperatures (winter-summer)needs to be considered as well as the wet clutch ester requirement for those bikes. At 30,000 kilometres in a tropical environment I switched to Castrol Edge 10W-60 full synthetic and it works fine with extended oil changes. My mate with identical bike (R1200S) switched to Penrite 15W-50 semi synthetic also with no problems. The main lesson here I think is run it in well and truly before going to synthetic. You can't go back once you change.

**Dewi Sant** · 03-30-12

Originally Posted by The Grey Ghost

I have it on good authority that the boxer engines should be run for at least 30,000 clicks (18,500 miles) on Castrol 20W-50 organic oil before changing to synthetic.

An even better authority (the workshop manual) tells me synthetic can be used after 10k kms

Obviously ambient temperatures (winter-summer)needs to be considered as well as the wet clutch ester requirement for those bikes.

Boxers have a dry clutch

At 30,000 kilometres in a tropical environment I switched to Castrol Edge 10W-60 full synthetic and it works fine with extended oil changes. My mate with identical bike (R1200S) switched to Penrite 15W-50 semi synthetic also with no problems. The main lesson here I think is run it in well and truly before going to synthetic.

You'd have experienced no problems with almost any other oil you chose either - as long as it met manufacturer specs i.e API SF or higher and was inthe recommended viscosity range for the ambient temps it was to operate in

You can't go back once you change.

Utter bollox, of course you can

Dewi

**danham** · 04-02-12

I'm always amazed by people who will pinch pennies when buying motor oil and then wonder why they spend many dollars on repairs. The difference in lifetime cost of BMW's OEM recommended oil versus Whizbang Magic Synthetic has got to be somewhat less than the parts, never mind labor, to repair a damaged wet clutch, for example. Internal engine repairs will turn the equation much farther upside down.

Ignoring those few tortured souls who believe that the manufacturer would purposely recommend an oil that will diabolically cause your engine to grenade four crankshaft revolutions after the warranty expires, that leaves one clear, well-documented, fact-based choice to run in our bikes. I'm not saying other brands and viscosities won't work. I'm sure many will. But I'd rather not be the test bed when it is so easy and still economical to make the right choice without sorting through Internet smoke and mirrors.

-dan

**MikeMike** · 04-02-12

It's because BMW's OEM oil costs almost $18 bucks a liter in Mexico and the exact same oil without the BMW logo costs $7 bucks a liter in Mexico.
An oil and filter change here goes for close to $120 bucks now at the local dealer. I just did my oil change with filter for $40 bucks.
Do the math and think about how much you are getting ripped off by BMW dealers.
Castrol 20w-50 is only oil the local dealer stocks and the only oil the local dealer uses with the BMW logo on the container.
You can buy Castrol 20w-50 motorcycle oil, the exact same oil to the exact same specs, and save $11 bucks a liter.
I am happy as a clam to be the test bed, drain plug is as clean as it was at the first 10K kms oil change and now going on 38K kms.

**danham** · 04-03-12

Originally Posted by MikeMike

It's because BMW's OEM oil costs almost $18 bucks a liter in Mexico and the exact same oil without the BMW logo costs $7 bucks a liter in Mexico.
An oil and filter change here goes for close to $120 bucks now at the local dealer. I just did my oil change with filter for $40 bucks.
Do the math and think about how much you are getting ripped off by BMW dealers.
Castrol 20w-50 is only oil the local dealer stocks and the only oil the local dealer uses with the BMW logo on the container.
You can buy Castrol 20w-50 motorcycle oil, the exact same oil to the exact same specs, and save $11 bucks a liter.
I am happy as a clam to be the test bed, drain plug is as clean as it was at the first 10K kms oil change and now going on 38K kms.

Mike,

Very glad your method is working, though I'm not sure a clean drain plug is worth as much as thousands of hours of product R&D at the Rotax factory.

I also hope your saving continues into the future: if you change your oil twice a year, you will save about $90 each year. That won't buy you many replacement parts.

-dan

**MikeMike** · 04-03-12

Dan, it's just that I don't see the logic in spending $11 dollars more a liter for the exact same oil as that which is in a container marked BMW.
Same goes for paying for an air filter that is no different than the original one in the bike and that collapsed due to being poorly manufactured, when I can get
a better one for the same price. Ditto for oil filters. And not have to have paid for a tool to remove them and then have BMW change the amount of flutes on the new filters
and render the tool useless.
I change oil about 4 times a year, I ride year round in temps that range in the mountains from below zero to seaside temps of up to 45c with high humidity.
If I want peace of mind, I'll buy something that doesn't come in a container marked BMW.
R and D at the Rotax factory? Which one? The one in China, Austria, Brazil, who knows where? I'll be sure to tell that one to the buddy of mine who, a few months ago, fought successfully with BMW to get a brand new motor for his bike as his old one was toast at around 30K kms due to catastrophic bearing failures, all always with BMW oil and filters and dealer service.
Rotax recommends a certain brand of oil and BMW sells a certain brand of oil (in a BMW container) because of corporate decision making and not engineering decision making.

**danham** · 04-03-12

No problem Mike. Don't know how you determined that the oil is the same, but if it is then your logic is unassailable. As for oil filters, be careful. They can look the same but have very different relief valves etc. BMW cars were well known for barfing their oil all over the driveway when the wrong filter was used and the oil got thick.

But your suggestion that Rotax didn't do R&D, including what oil specs to use, is a little silly, esp. if it's based on one engine failure. Are you seriously suggesting that their oil recommendation is invalid because you personally can't ID which country the R&D was done in and that one friend had an engine failure?

I'm sure the decision to recommend BMW brand is indeed corporate, but that brand also conforms to the specs the engineers supplied, unless you want to join the ranks of raving paranoids described above. Whether the BMW oil is priced fairly or not has nothing to do with its ability to meet those specs. And note that I already said other brands may also meet them.

At any rate, arguing engine oil on the Internet is a bit like relieving oneself upwind, so I'll repeat my sincere hope that your oil does what it's supposed to and sign off, taking my decades of Porsche/Audi experience and NIASE certification with me.

-dan

**MikeMike** · 04-03-12

Raving paranoid? Not really, if I was I would have been worried about how many kms I had covered when my OEM factory R and D researched specd and masterful BMW quality air filter had collapsed into my air box.
You really can't beat OEM quality, can you?
Or how about how you can source bearings anywhere in the world that are about 24% the cost of an OEM bearing coming from a bag with BMW stamped on it? And how that bearing will be of higher quality than the original OEM's that were replaced under a "campaign". A campaign of which there have been more than a half a dozen issued by the factory. A "campaign" is nothing more than BMW doing a recall without admitting fault.
Yes, for sure, a real raving paranoid I am, aren't I? LOL!
How do I know that it is the same oil? Because Castrol manufactures it for BMW to the same specs as the Castrol oil that Castrol put in a bottle marked "Castrol" instead of BMW, that's how.
Now, if the R and D by Rotax and BMW was so thorough and so precise and so consumer oriented and so high tech, why do they specify one oil (10w-40) in the manual, but only sell 20w-50, recommend it, and use it exclusively at the dealerships? You cannot get 10w-40 BMW motorcycle oil here at the local dealers.
Don't believe everything you read, it's a whole other world out there outside of the big USA.

**N4HHE** · 04-03-12

Originally Posted by danham

No problem Mike. Don't know how you determined that the oil is the same, but if it is then your logic is unassailable. As for oil filters, be careful. They can look the same but have very different relief valves etc. BMW cars were well known for barfing their oil all over the driveway when the wrong filter was used and the oil got thick.

But your suggestion that Rotax didn't do R&D, including what oil specs to use, is a little silly, esp. if it's based on one engine failure. Are you seriously suggesting that their oil recommendation is invalid because you personally can't ID which country the R&D was done in and that one friend had an engine failure?

Where are these "heavily researched oil specs" published? If not published then they mean nothing.

I'm sure the decision to recommend BMW brand is indeed corporate,

"BMW Brand" is not an oil spec.

but that brand also conforms to the specs the engineers supplied, unless you want to join the ranks of raving paranoids described above. Whether the BMW oil is priced fairly or not has nothing to do with its ability to meet those specs. And note that I already said other brands may also meet them.

Under the laws of all free nations BMW can not mandate any brand of motor oil as a condition of warranty unless BMW provides that oil and service at no charge. The intent is to force BMW to publish their requirements of said motor oil that any oil meeting that spec may be used. BMW has published specifications for F800 motor oils and they are very trivial.

**MikeMike** · 04-04-12

Originally Posted by N4HHE

Under the laws of all free nations BMW can not mandate any brand of motor oil as a condition of warranty unless BMW provides that oil and service at no charge.

I wish!
In Mexico, your warranty is invalid if you do not have it serviced at the dealer and the dealer will only use BMW branded oil and filter. The trick is that the dealer must stamp the owners log book that has to be filled with dealer stamps for the warranty period for it to be valid. The USA has some very good consumer protection laws that are totally lacking in other parts of the world.

I wonder if the other guy can perhaps tell me how it was possible that BMW would not honor my warranty claims on the factory finish on parts because, in their exact words, "You live near the ocean, we will not warranty those parts"? LOL!

**DUFOX** · 04-12-12

Can I use Rotella 15-40 oil for the F800ST. It is a high grade diesel oil.

**bobz** · 04-12-12

Yes can certainly use it....but why would you want to?

Diesel engines are a bit different than gas. Very much higher compression ratios so there is more ring blow by putting more contaminated in the oil. Diesel oil has additives that address this but those additives / quantity of additives are not needed in a gas engine. Also why would you want to put a thicker 15W oil when a more fluid(less viscous) 10W would pump easier, especially at start up.

PS most/much of the wear happens at start up when there is no fluid "bushing" yet established.

I would recommend you stay with the recommended 10/40. any good quality oil.

**N4HHE** · 04-12-12

Originally Posted by bobz

Yes can certainly use it....but why would you want to?

Because there is no better oil to be had at any price?
Its easy to find.
Its inexpensive.
Its JASO-MA certified by Shell.

Diesel engines are a bit different than gas. Very much higher compression ratios so there is more ring blow by putting more contaminated in the oil. Diesel oil has additives that address this but those additives / quantity of additives are not needed in a gas engine.

Right, but wrong. Diesel engines put motor oil detergent properties to the ultimate test. Gasoline engines also need detergent motor oil but many so-called high quality motorcycle-specific oils are weak on detergent. Low detergent oils make ignorant consumers happy because they see "how clean their oil stays!" If it stays clean longer it must be better, right? Wrong. Oil does not make the crud and if it doesn't get "dirty" then it can not carry the crud out of the engine when oil is drained. The crud remains behind. The oil filter can not trap it until it builds up on a surface to make a big chunk, and then flakes off.

Many trying Rotella-T for the first time in what they believe to be an immaculately maintained engine previously using only "the best" motorcycle oils are disgusted at how quickly Rotella-T turns dark. In their mistaken minds Rotella-T must be inferior to what they were using. But Rotella-T is just cleansing the engine of stuff other oils left behind.

Also why would you want to put a thicker 15W oil when a more fluid(less viscous) 10W would pump easier, especially at start up.

Insignificant at temperatures most ride. 15W pumps, therefore it gets the job done. The W rating is based on the coldest temperature the oil can be effectively pumped. 15W is -15°C. 15W at -15°C is exactly the same viscosity as 10W at -20°C. So the difference between 10W and 15W is 5°C.

PS most/much of the wear happens at start up when there is no fluid "bushing" yet established.

That is about 50 years out of date. Modern oils are very very good about sticking to surfaces to protect at start.

I would recommend you stay with the recommended 10/40. any good quality oil.

I recommend you show your dealer how much you love him and buy only the most expensive oil he has in stock!

**N4HHE** · 04-12-12

Originally Posted by DUFOX

Can I use Rotella 15-40 oil for the F800ST. It is a high grade diesel oil.

Yes you may. Plus it mets all the published specs for your engine.

You can also use Rotella-T6 in 5W40 if the word "synthetic" makes you happy. I have used both and the only difference I can tell is on a 50°F morning 5W40 shifts a little easier the first 100 yards. If you let the bike warm up the few minutes you put helmet, jacket, and gloves on, then there is no difference. I don't start the engine until after I am dressed, and then I ride off almost immediately.

**bobz** · 04-12-12

Originally Posted by N4HHE

Yes you may. Plus it mets all the published specs for your engine.

You can also use Rotella-T6 in 5W40 if the word "synthetic" makes you happy. I have used both and the only difference I can tell is on a 50°F morning 5W40 shifts a little easier the first 100 yards. If you let the bike warm up the few minutes you put helmet, jacket, and gloves on, then there is no difference. I don't start the engine until after I am dressed, and then I ride off almost immediately.

I agree Shell Rotella T6 is a good oil. I've been using it in my New Holland diesel tractor for years.

I just checked the Shell site to see if they recommend it for motorcycles. Didn't see that. They do have 4 grades of motorcycle oil.
I guess they should have checked with you first.
It would have saved them the trouble of making motorcycle oil. oops maybe you think they are just relabeling the Rotella?

enjoy

**N4HHE** · 04-13-12

Originally Posted by bobz

I agree Shell Rotella T6 is a good oil. I've been using it in my New Holland diesel tractor for years.

I just checked the Shell site to see if they recommend it for motorcycles. Didn't see that. They do have 4 grades of motorcycle oil.
I guess they should have checked with you first.
It would have saved them the trouble of making motorcycle oil. oops maybe you think they are just relabeling the Rotella?

enjoy

Rotella-T6 is 5W40 synthetic. Rotella-T is the refined 15W40 and recommended for motorcycles plus JASO MA in http://www-static.shell.com/static/can-en/downloads/shell_for_businesses/oils_lubricants/1-53.pdf

**DUFOX** · 04-16-12

Thanks for all the tips guys. I agree that if your oil stays clean after running for 3000 miles, then it's not doing its job of "sweeping" the debris as well.

**iluxa** · 08-06-12

I'm living in warm country and riding on bike all the year (about 30K kms a year)., I'm using 10w40 semi-syntetic oil.
My mechanic (not bmw dealer, but he is very familiar with Rotax engines on Bombardier and Timax) suggested to me to start to use 10w60 oil and G12 cooling fluid.
I understand that it can help me with engine cooling and lubrication and I will have less engine/gear noises.
However I'm afraid what will happen with oil and water pumps (different viscosity when engine is warm).
Also I afraid what will happen with clutch and gearbox when I will use synthetic oil.

What do you think?

**bobz** · 08-06-12

I have allways used full synthetic oil, in my F650GS. Just past 30,000 miles.
Here in the states, BMW labels, Spectro 100% Syn oil. It is 10-40.

Synthetic's oil's main claim to fame is superior performance and life and high temperatures, than conventional oil. I must say I have never head of 10-60....Do you know the spec on this rating? Is the high temp 60w flow rate rating done and the same temperature as the 40w high temp flow rating? Just curious.

**iluxa** · 08-06-12

according to liqui-moli:
you can see 10w60 full synthetic specs:
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/m...010W-60_EN.pdf

10w40 semi synthetic specs:
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/m...010W-40_EN.pdf

it looks that 10w60 is almost twice viscous that 10w40 at high temperature

**N4HHE** · 08-06-12

Originally Posted by bobz

Synthetic's oil's main claim to fame is superior performance and life and high temperatures, than conventional oil.

There is nothing about "synthetic" which gives a motor oil those magic superior properties you attribute.

A synthetically manufactured motor oil could have those properties but just because of its manufacture does not necessarily make it as good as a refined oil.

**Downs** · 08-07-12

Everyone worries too much about oil.

Run an oil that is slick and in the viscosity recommend by the manufacture. Change on a semi-regular basis carry on with life. That is all.

For every "my engine lasted forever on this super hyper syn oil from god" story I can find you one from a guy that has ran Wal Mart SuperTech dino oil in his truck for 200,000 miles and it still runs fine to this day.

Again to summarize.

Run an oil that is well.......... oil and slick
In a weight recommended by the manufacture
Change on a semi-regular basis
Carry on with life as normal and remove one more thing from you list of shit to worry about.

**bobz** · 08-07-12

Originally Posted by N4HHE

There is nothing about "synthetic" which gives a motor oil those magic superior properties you attribute.

A synthetically manufactured motor oil could have those properties but just because of its manufacture does not necessarily make it as good as a refined oil.

You are incorrect. Synthetic oils were developed for use in the extreme temperature environment of aircraft engines and jet engines, primarily for the properties of superior performance and life at high temperatures. Check Wiki out or google it.
I do agree that a good dino oil with the right additive set lubricates as well as similar synthetic...it just does not keep those properties as long.

**N4HHE** · 08-08-12

Originally Posted by bobz

You are incorrect. Synthetic oils were developed for use in the extreme temperature environment of aircraft engines and jet engines, primarily for the properties of superior performance and life at high temperatures. Check Wiki out or google it.
I do agree that a good dino oil with the right additive set lubricates as well as similar synthetic...it just does not keep those properties as long.

It matters not "what synthetics were developed for". Tang went to the moon, that doesn't mean powdered breakfast drinks are superior to real orange juice.

A superior motor oil can be manufactured using synthetic processes. Just because synthetic processes were used does not mean a superior motor oil was produced.

BMW makes superior motorcycles, but not all BMW motorcycles are superior.

"Synthetic" is not a motor oil performance specification.

**MikeMike** · 08-09-12

Originally Posted by N4HHE

BMW makes superior motorcycles, but not all BMW motorcycles are superior.

BMW makes SOME superior motorcycles, but not all BMW motorcycles are superior. Better said that way. You are doing something along the lines of the Neil Armstrong thing the other way.

**N4HHE** · 08-09-12

Originally Posted by MikeMike

BMW makes SOME superior motorcycles, but not all BMW motorcycles are superior. Better said that way. You are doing something along the lines of the Neil Armstrong thing the other way.

You mean to say that Tang Synthetic Orange Juice is not superior to old fashioned refined/squeezed orange juice?

But but but, Tang was created to go to the moon!

**MikeMike** · 08-10-12

No.
What I meant was, "That's one small step for Spandau, one giant leap to even try to get us to believe in BMW quality"

**N4HHE** · 08-10-12

But Tang is Synthetic! It must be superior!

**MikeMike** · 08-11-12

Try leaving a liter of Tang in your fridge for 4 days.
Then try leaving a liter of fresh squeezed orange juice in your fridge for 4 days.
Taste.
You can leave one in longer than the other.
Simple.

**Dutch** · 05-03-14

[QUOTE The main lesson here I think is run it in well and truly before going to synthetic. You can't go back once you change.[/QUOTE]

It seems to me that this is another of those urban legends; that you can't switch back once you change. I've gone back and forth between synthetic and dino in my old Jeep several times, and at 270,000 without any engine problems, I can say with practical experience, that this is a myth. IMHO. At the dealer for my first 600 change I mentioned that the book recommended 15/50 semi-synthetic, but the dealer still recommended 10/40 regular BMW brand, as he felt that gear changes were better with the 10/40. He did say that if I tried the 15/50, ( which I did at my 3000 mile change) and didn't like the clutch action, to just change back to the 10/40, which I plan on doing next week at my 6000 mile service interval......so, anyone else have any comment on changing between synthetic and regular dino?

**Mokkybear** · 05-04-14

Yep - urban myth

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